Jane 26/09/21:
Just a note to add from lecture 1. Participation mystique. Been thinking about this and the hatred he refers to, between two people who fall in love I think is true if that love is on an egoic, conditional level. When I had an ego it always surprised me how that there is a very fine line between that kind of love and hate relationship if it is coming from a conditional love.
It was a mystery to me when the person I loved the most pissed me off. How come my love could turn to feelings of hatred towards that person? Almost as if it was easier to hate them in that moment than even other people I did not love? I think I understand why now. That unbridled passion together with reflection and projection of self hatred?
Laz 26/09/21:
This is one of those things that I hear from my significant other and cannot understand. Ali says that she hates herself on occasion, and I cannot figure out why! I have never hated who I am and cannot imagine what that’s like. At best I have to consider it overly harsh criticism that is said without conviction?
But in answer to your question I would suggest that familiarity breads contempt!
Jane 27/09/21:
In some it can be very damaging and again, not always a conscious thing it can be subconscious, brought about for example by such deep rooted negative beliefs about ourselves in things like lack of self worth. It is said that if something is repeated 40 times, it sticks!
Laz 27/09/21:
So where does that come from? childhood abuse? I mean that point about learning through pain, that could be enough to cause it! Once bitten, twice shy I suppose.
Jane 27/09/21:
Not only in childhood but things like bullying in adults can cause it too. I had a father that was like this, he was like a Victorian father. I’m sure many others did too, but it didn’t effect me the way you say it does to others. It depends on the child’s mental capacities and resilience to such treatment. As well as different personalities.
Jane 27/09/21:
As has been discussed in cruel teaching methods, when that “hurt” painful energy from a physical strike is delivered with information, it rams it home! It gets remembered! The same methodology applies by repeatedly telling someone things like they are useless, it is then set up in their subconscious/unconscious to them as a fact! (Especially so, when we are children.)
Laz 27/09/21:
I had a dad that was like this, he was like a Victorian father. I’m sure many others did too, but it didn’t effect me the way you say it does to others.
Jane 27/09/21:
It doesn’t have to be a physical strikes to provide the shock tactic, it can be felt as a cruel stabbing pain to the heart mental/psychologically, It gets buried in their subconscious, and becomes part of the programming.
Then as a consequence we believe what we were “taught”. That becomes a sandbank of illusional belief brainwashed into the mind unless washed or sandblasted away. It can set down deep psychological roots. I know I had a lot of this to deal with where my friend was concerned. The human psyche can be so fragile. I think that maybe you activated your heart chakra earlier than most? I would say you certainly attained morals at a very young age. Plus you became an independent thinking mind along with those morals. Regardless what people may believe I don’t think we can truly love another individual without conditions unless we can first love ourself! So maybe that was the difference with you?
Laz 27/09/21:
Would you agree that this is down to the individual to resolve? I’m not sure there is anything another can do to help, other than say in the counsellor role.
Jane 27/09/21:
I agree and it can be a very difficult task to sandblast. I do think self empowerment study can help a lot but that takes some serious working on the self.
Jane 27/09/21:
As I have said before, I think my “fall” seems to have been a long drop compared to you. I am not not trying to big you up but the more I learn about you I have to admit that you do seem to have been uniquely different to most 🙂
Laz 27/09/21:
Yes, we’re all individuals 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
Nowerdays I could not feel hatred towards anyone 🙂 Did you ever experience that? Or has your love never been that conditional?
Laz 26/09/21:
Yes I’ve hated people, but in the last decade or so I have forgiven them all sometimes daily as I learnt what forgiveness was all about. My love has never been with conditions, I’m just not like that and can’t understand why some would set up a relationship that way.
Jane 27/09/21:
I would suggest that is because in your case you never did. I told you that you are not like “normal” people. Lmao. Most people’s egoic love comes with conditions. I think in relationships we attract a set up but as with most things, not on a consciously aware level. I guess it is part of the strange way humans energies work, Like the way opposites can attract.
Laz 27/09/21:
How is one supposed to know the terms of a relationship if they are not expressed until years later, and only when an undisclosed condition is breached? This seems like utter madness! Shouldn’t the wedding vows be the only contract one has?
Jane 27/09/21:
I would say it is because people chose a life partner before knowing them properly and possibly too young. You was sensible and dated for a long time and did not just jump in 🙂 We change as we mature, I have explained how our consciousness changes but not always on par with the other in any relationship, marriage or otherwise. We can outgrow friends the same way. Yes it is utter madness as you say and I think culturally marriage is going out of fashion for many.
Jane 27/09/21:
Some people unconsciously set up a relationship with absolute conditions that may not come into play until the honeymoon period ends. Even the initial attraction can wear off. Relationships can become a sort of battle of the egos. (as well as battle of the sexes for most) I am now aware that my ego was very masculine in nature! 😀 I think it depends what level people function on, but I think the conflict is that fiery passion at the level of the lower chakras. I see it very clearly playing out in peoples karmic relationships.
Laz 27/09/21:
I still feel that chakras are “positive energy” centres and the failure to act in accordance with divine law prevents any ascent into those energy centres. I don’t know how in alignment with the scriptures I am here, but feel that it is the lack of understanding here that leads people to misuse their energy in negative ways. I do not however say there is no room for negative energy in the subtle body, as I’ve felt it myself, and channels like Ida and Pingala can transmit this negative energy, but the chakra doesn’t light up for negative energy and instead blocks it “none shall pass” style 🙂
Jane 01/10/21:
When you talked about the ascent of the chakras where “none shall pass”, and with regards to wires getting crossed would you say that in a western taught mind they are uncrossed only by the ascent through Manipura? Like a point where the consciousness is capable of the cross over of switching from the focus externally and instead can focus within?
Laz 01/10/21:
I’m not sure Christianity has a Manipura equivelent, if you remember Jung considered the chakras as symbols that collect together many ideas into one idea, kind of like seeing a road sign with a car on it, it is not like any car on the road today, but we all know it relates to Fords, and Volvos, Mercedes, and Peugeots, etc.
Christianity too may keeps the follower at a distance from the divine, allowing only vicars or priests the ability to converse with the divine and then relay those messages to the congregation. Such is the fear of individuals talking to god that they are subjugated into onlookers only. There is a meme I’ve seen where it shows the history of Christianity over the centuries and how the core message of pagans was perverted through Jesus and then the hierarchy of the church to distance the believer from the source!
Jane 01/10/21:
Lmao. I love that. It is spot on!
Jane 27/09/21:
Then it depends on the levels of connection between people as they grow, as they mature and higher chakras or bodies come into function, or not, as the case may be. So many variables can complicate things… I have said this before but it does seem to me like you never developed that kind of mentality or negative side to the ego.
Laz 27/09/21:
I don’t know, I had to work through a lot of stuff to get where I am today. It feels like I just don’t understand some people.
Laz 26/09/21:
Lecture 3
So, that was all a bit Meh! for me.
My take aways from it are less to to with the subject matter and more to do with Jung himself. My is he arrogant! For someone who lays no claim to have experienced Kundalini awakening in himself, he sure likes to think he’s an expert in the subject, but because he hasn’t experienced it, he makes huge mistakes, such as thinking that experiencing the thousand petaled lotus above the Sarhasrara cannot be done! Such hubris 🙁
It is also interesting to me to see more in this lecture than the others about the time they were made, and the attitudes to race and Nazis and lack of knowledge about the science we’ve come up with since then. It really is a snapshot into the past.
Jane 26/09/21:
Yes that was interesting to me too 🙂
Manipura. The fire region where things get cooked.
"So you could really say that the kitchen is a digestive tract projected from the human body. And it is the alchemistic place where things are transformed"
Manipurua being where substances are digested, transformed. So this is the chakra that the alchemical like processing goes on in the psycho-mental realm?
Is the solar plexus the same chakra/area that Carlos and Don refer to with instructions to protect by plugging, covering to prevent energy loss or negative energy to enter?
"pubity initiations....taught certain morals values, which prevented the mere blind action of the manipura fires of passion"
Maybe that was what you taught yourself at 13 ? 🙂
Laz 26/09/21:
All this talk of kitchens and digestion was way off what it should have been for me, it’s gilding the Lilly, gold plating, and endless fettling. It was like something which happened at work the other day for me; I was asked by an application specialist if the application I was working on could have a warning banner at the top for a while why we are still working on new features stating that the product was not yet finished and that changes would be made over the coming days, I was asked to put in a link to someone’s contact so that users could inform us of any issues until the app was complete on the 4th October.
So I did this and it was fine, but the others in my team had a huge number of issues with it to do with, should it be a link to an email? Should it be a form instead? if it was a form what system should support it? What should the form contain? What should the layout be? What colours should the form be? Who should build this form? Did they have time? Could we reuse an old form? Can we copy old forms, or do they need to be modified from what they were? Are these old forms still used?
On and on and on and on it went. I was sat in a meeting with these people and must have looked like this:
I was just blown away by the levels these people were prepared to go to to discuss something so temporary and unimportant, when there were more pressing and important problems for us to resolve.I came to the understanding that people do this because it’s easy for them, it’s comfortable and non-stressing. The real issues are difficult to understand and process, so they just don’t!
Jane 27/09/21:
Reading that it sounds like a right palaver…. but that image made me laugh out loud! I could just imagine it/you 🙂
Laz 26/09/21:
And I think this is true of Jung as well, he ruminates over the chakras endlessly looking at their meaning because it is easy, but it’s not the point of Tantra, or Yoga as a wider concept. He’s missed the point for what? so he can compare a chakra to an elephant. So fucking what?!?
Jane 27/09/21:
Like I have said, he was no Gopi Krishna, no personal experience meant no t-shirt for Yung 😀 He really was on a completely different level.
Laz 27/09/21:
😀
Jane 26/09/21:
"We have not yet found the bridge between physics and psychology "
This has obviously advanced and I have read articles where today, people like the Dali Lama has correlated metaphysics with the Buddhist teachings. These lectures are 90 years old! Pre WW2. I can correlate things from personal experience between science and spirit.
"one must even educate people, when they have crossed from Manipura to Anahata that their emotions ought to have a real basis, that they cannot swear hell and damnation at someone on a mere assumption and that there are absolute reasons why they are not justified in doing such a thing. They really have to learn that their feelings should be based on facts"
"in our actual historical psychological development we have about reached anahata"
I would say this is where a lot of people are at present. What I call a stage of emotional retardation or a lack of emotional intelligence.
Laz 26/09/21:
People who practice Yoga, maybe. But the masses wouldn’t know a chakra if it gave them a kick in the back while they were peeing! But in the wider sense, yes I agree with you. Although I cannot put my finger on why it is the case.
In things I’ve read, watched, listened to, there seems to be a consensus that the general public are mollycoddled these days and don’t know hardship, that they simply do as they are told and do not think for themselves. But I can’t see where this idea has come from? It’s not the schools, or the colleges, or the universities. It’s not the businesses as they can be harsh environments rather than the old idea of a job for life like some generations had.
I guess it could be something in our environment, but clearly not everyone is effected. I don’t know, maybe it’s just watching too much TV and believing that what they see there is reality!
Jane 27/09/21:
I would definitely say so. I call it the brainwashing box! Lol. But then again some people with a limited take on things via internet viewing think in the same way. They are brainwashed by algorithms! Oh the freedom of an independent mind 🙂
Laz 27/09/21:
Who are these people? Surely the internet being interactive and mostly free of coercion is many steps above the TV! It’s not a library full of all one author’s books for example 🙂
Jane 27/09/21:
No but it is well recognised there are many people who will go into a bubble of information and believe it to be the whole. In a way it becomes tribal. That is how radicalisation works. It is less coercive than t v but not free of coercion for those with limited intelligence or who are easily manipulated.
Different levels of consciousness awareness determines how we are influenced. And by who. Then some people are getting news or facts from one source without looking at boarder perspectives. There is a lot of crap I see on platforms like Facebook and twitter where the platform providers are still subtly in control of what news is shown. People are blind to most of it. I think big tech companies have got too big for their boots, and entered the political arena, for example they ban Trump but allow the Taliban free speech? Like, hu? That is not so subtle. Lol. But it is all centralised in America.
Jane 26/09/21:
He then goes on to say…
"but to cross from Anahata to Visuddha one should unlearn all of that. One should even admit that all one's psychical facts have nothing to do with material facts"
Is this the Yoda equivalent of “you must unlearn what you have learned” ? Lol.
Laz 26/09/21:
I would say so 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
I see it as a transcendence of such emotions and beliefs by recognition of such things like that causes are multidimensional and not linear as they are perceived to be. Like with the assumptions.
"he gets the psychic factor all right, because it is in a way our doing, and yet it is not our doing: it happens in an impish way. The elusiveness of the psychogenic factor is amazing"
Would you say that action or reaction coming from places like the unknown subconscious is truly free will?
Laz 26/09/21:
I would argue that free will is real and is used, but only by the few, and they need to be strong to stand against the conformity of the zombie horde of mankind. For the majority there is no free will and someone like my wife who professes that she “doesn’t like to think”, follows along like a little lost lamb.
Jane 26/09/21:
"It would be the recognition of the psyche itself as something that of course functions together with the body, but which has the dignity of cause. You see if a doctor admits such a thing he is going a really long way"
"the logical medical mind does not quite trust whether it is really something you could lay your hands on"
This is as above so below to me. What is held in mind especially in the subconscious manifests in the physical body. I discovered that by actual factual experience. They were behind the times and probably were unaware of the correlation or the limbic system at this stage? Above Anahata in Visuddha it says ….
"that is the power of the elephant, which you feel perhaps even in what you would call absurdities"
So I am just wondering, as evolution is the activation of the ascending chakras in humanity, maybe that could be what is causing the current chaos and idiocracy? The mass psychosis? Visuddha.
Laz 26/09/21:
I can’t see it myself, as discussed above 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
So Jung asks what is ether from the physical point of view, and goes on to say it can only be found within one’s brain, nowhere else? Ether is known in the physical as the sky, regions beyond the clouds, atmosphere, aerospace in the physical world. External. He says that the ether is only in the centre of Visuddha, and I would agree that this internal correlation is within the brain/mind internally.
"we are trying something that would be more than Professor Pickard achieved? He was only in the stratosphere - he reached something exceedingly thin, I admit, but it was not yet ether. So we have to construct a sort of skyrocket of a very large dimension which shoots us into space"
So I googled him, and see the correlation here between physics and mind/spirituality. What he was attempting in the physical realm, I would certainly say that I achieved, but in the consciousness realm as a kind of spiritual psychonaut 🙂
Laz 26/09/21:
I’m sure you did, and I can relate too 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
Visuddha is ….
"a sphere of abstraction" ...
"one lands in a world of concepts"
I certainly cannot argue with that! Everything seemed to have been conceptually constructed to me in my mind in order to comprehend experiences. (As well as things being seen as symbolic) He describes it as
"expressing the science of psychical things"
"in reaching Visuddha, you reach an airless space, where there is no earthly chance for the ordinary individual to breathe. So it seems to be a very critical kind of adventure"
I think this is why I had that acclimatising period/symptoms whilst I was transcending again after we reconnected? My being was familiar with it but just had to readjust. (ending with that 10 days of Input data, run known programme. Lol) I honestly believe that our communications during that period was the only thing stopping me from literally going back! Like fully back into the nagual realm.
Laz 26/09/21:
Wow! Well I’m pleased for you, but I was not aware of doing anything special 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
I told you I was panicked at one point about turning into a stone buddha, lmao. Funny now but I did not know what was going on. My mission was over that I had put my all into for years and I could feel myself leaving the matrix realm I felt my consciousness was become more diffuse and nothing else around me was stimulating any focus for my mind, grabbing or holding my attention. All apps had been deleted in the game. I remember my contradictory dilemma, my brainwaves were trying to slow down and I was desperately trying to keep them stimulated. Then it took that Kundalini process to take over to reach equilibrium. If I think back, it was a very confusing time 🙂
Laz 26/09/21:
I’m glad you came through it 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
“A point of view to explain the series of the chakras would be climbing up from gross matter to the subtle, psychical matter”
"Now, the idea of this transformation from earth to ether is one of the oldest constituents of Hindu philosophy"
"took their origin in the Samkhya philosophy, so this concept dates back endlessly"
So that is interesting because I have always thought that the desperate need for man to travel externally, into the ether, like off planet to explore outer space is a reflection and projection of his inner Self/need?
Laz 26/09/21:
I’d never considered that before but I think you’re right, it’s like a crossed wire and a material expression of the spiritual ascent to god, only external and unfortunately without the goal being reached. I’ve seen the reactions recently of those SpaceX astronauts creaming themselves looking at earth from space and I’m like:
“So what? It’s a planet, woot! Such empty!”
Jane 27/09/21:
I think this of all teachings or scriptures that what is meant to be a symbolic representation is cross wired, as you put it and projected into the physical. The things described like “jihad/holy wars” are meant to be within. But has to be told as a story without! To put it out there as a creation to be comprehended by human minds as concepts but they are symbolic. Like a map to follow as an inwards path. But the wires need to be uncrossed first.
Laz 26/09/21:
The inner journey has better fruit to pick and I’m reminded of those poor ants that get infected with a fungus that compels them to climb to the highest point, where they die, but the fungus that was controlling them now “flowers” and spreads it’s spores on the breeze.
Jane 27/09/21:
I was not aware of that fact and it’s a good way of putting it 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
"it is quite self-evident that you cannot always live in meditation, or in a trance condition. You have to go about this world..."
This was the natural process I went through in the slowing back down of my brainwaves when I left the Matrix again. Back to a meditative level because I don’t have to go about this world. I mean, I thought some Buddhist practitioners do learn to live a functioning meditative life ?
Ajna.
"In the ajna centre the psyche gets wings...... the ego disappears completely...you are not even dreaming of doing anything other than what the force is demanding, and the force is not demanding it since you are already doing it - since you are the force. And the force returns to the origin, God."
A will surrendered?
"you know the unicorn is a symbol of the holy ghost - that would be a western equivalent "
I was not familiar with that, are you?
Laz 26/09/21:
No, it feels more Druidic to me and reminds me of Harry Potter and that Patronas thing in the woods. And Speaking of Potter again, this section reminded me of the Rebis winged ball, and thus Harry’s chase after the Golden Snitch!
Jane 27/09/21:
I have not watched the movies so had to google that stuff to get what you mean 🙂
Jane 26/09/21:
Interesting that it has made such a huge and popular comeback with todays generations? Ooh look! one with a built in lightsaber. 😀
Laz 26/09/21:
Nice 😀
Laz 30/09/21:
Lecture 4
Another one down, and only the appendices left, not sure I can be bothered with them, but if you wish to read them, I will do so to 🙂
Jane 01/10/21:
Do I take it by you saying “another one down” you are not enjoying reading this book? But, yeah I wondered about that too, you don’t have to but I will continue to read and see/let you know if it sparks anything in my mind 🙂
Laz 01/10/21:
No, it’s really put me off Jung as a philosopher. For someone who I keep hearing about, and I know carries a popular army of supporters I cannot find that I like his approach or his work, and maybe it is his ultimate failure that he was unable to get the medical establishment to take his theories about mental health and Kundalini seriously, even if he was correct.
Laz 30/09/21:
Again I found that lecture lame and without conclusion, the only bit I liked was when Jung spoke about the need to go down to the depths of the unconscious not being a death sentence but instead an ascent into a spiritual life, which I’m sure we can both relate too 🙂
Jane 01/10/21:
Absolutely! Maybe that is the pathway into the uncrossing of the wires?
Laz 30/09/21:
But I am reminded again of my own journey with the medical establishment and almost want to respond to my own mental health video with a candid retort now. Because Jung knew what I had been going through. Jung would have correctly diagnosed me, and treated me appropriately. I want to know why the mental health professionals do not consider Jung’s gift to them as at all valuable?
jane 01/10/21:
Yeah, it is frustrating to think about that is why I gave up on them all!
Laz 30/09/21:
When I think of all of those hours talking to the wall, all those wasted drugs which did nothing for me (although I’m glad they didn’t) All of that expertise so badly mistaken and lead astray by their own education! If Jung had treated me, my destination would not have changed, but my journey would have been so much smoother, hey and maybe they could have written up an accurate account of my experience as evidence of Carl Gustav being right, and maybe they would not have suffered from my distain and unbelief in their policies and processes.
Who knows I might have had a great relationship with one of them, rather than shunning their incompetent asses now!
Jane 01/10/21:
So what I found strange. Is he talking literally here? I get the animal kingdom marking their turf, but….
"The thief deposits his excrement in the place he has looted and says in this way: "this is my signature; this belongs to me; woe to him who crosses my path""
I know this was nearly a century ago, but I have never heard of shitting thieves.? Lol.
Laz 01/10/21:
Difficult to tell, I mean there was that January 6th US capitol riot where the protestors shit on the desks of the politicians!
Jane 01/10/21:
So these first two terms, foreign words are new to me…..
Definition – What does Sthula mean?
Sthula is a Sanskrit term and adjective which is used in yogic writings and philosophy to denote that which is fixed and manifest. It is associated with things that have a gross, physical existence and may be considered to be of a physically coarse material. The human body is considered sthula.
Definition – What does Sukshma mean?
Sukshma is a Sanskrit word meaning "subtle" or "dormant." The presence of sukshma is felt, but not seen.
Definition – What does Para mean?
Para is a Sanskrit word which translates literally to mean "supreme," "highest" or "absolute." It is found in a number of different terms and phrases linked to yoga. For example, the phrase para tattva means "supreme truth." It is used to refer to teachings that represent the highest embodiment of truth and is used to describe the Supreme/Absolute Reality.
If these are three aspects of the chakras, is this the equivalent to the trinity? Or am I way off here? 🙂
Laz 01/10/21:
I don’t think so, I believe the three Gunas are more like the holy trinity if there can even be a comparison 🙂 Like Jung wrote, the Indian philosophy starts with the general and narrows in on the individual, which is the reverse from the European model.
Jane 01/10/21:
If Hindus: ” see inner experience as revelation; they would never say about this experience “I thought it”” then that may be why the ego is not built in to them in the same context as other cultures?