Jane 13/09/21:
Well good start with the introduction, I am unfamiliar with some of these eastern terms used and that seems to have slowed down my reading a bit 🙂 but I have already made many realisations myself. I know that the eastern and western ways were so different that they were seen as totally incompatible by the esoterics, you had to stick to one or the other and I completely understand why. Totally different frameworks. Hopefully this book will provide more details on that 🙂
I had no control or volitional direction on my path but I would say that I did both, the western Jesus, (Christian gnosticism) and eastern buddha like paths then transcended both, combined with the self psychoanalysis going on this lead to self realisation and belief in myself. With Source as my energy flow. But that seems to have been my way, not to dismiss but to understand in order to embody and or transcend limiting concepts and beliefs but I just kept on going, there were no breaks on my vehicle of consciousness to stop me I guess? ..only for me to discover that meant I had left the Matrix. Only by the film could I have ever possibly been able to put a concept to that and one that others as well as myself could understand. Grasp.
Laz 13/09/21:
I don’t know, there’s been plenty of others that preceded it: They Live, Network, Invasion of the body snatchers, The Prisoner, many Twilight Zone episodes. 🙂
Jane 13/09/21:
I am wondering what the western psychiatry/psychology professions would make of me? 🙂 Probably just think I am bat shit crazy 😀
It sounds like it’s going to be interesting, I know the two disciplines are attempting to merge in the west by the masses but I did not realise, and it defies belief that this has been known professionally for 90 years but is still as yet to penetrate the psyche of most in the western medical professions. That is nearly a century of arseholing around with the most important aspects for the progressive evolution of humanity. mind and spirit.
Laz 13/09/21:
That made me laugh 😀 Isn’t it strange though, we are an odd people!
Jane 13/09/21:
OK so, Question: Is that the same thing as tonal and nagual? Strange that I had flashing lights in my head for a while when I relaxed after I had read this introduction? Anyway, on to the lectures 🙂
Laz 13/09/21:
"it is doubtful that Jung's rope trick of standing Kundalini Yoga on it's head and then lopping off the last two cakras as "superfluous speculations with no practical value" would be accepted"
This made me laugh, and also reminded me of Don Juan Matus 😀
Laz 15/09/21:
I wasn’t sure if I should skip this first Introduction chapter, as it is not Jung’s words but a commentary on his life. I’m glad I did not as I learnt that Carl correctly identified that Kundalini awakening was a possible cause of psychological symptoms presented to him. However I was sad to read that while he spearheaded this avenue of thought, no-one followed him in his field 🙁
I was confused by his stance on Evil being positive, and I hope this is covered in detail later in the book, but I can only imagine that the famous Kali destruction is clearing out a path for better things to follow?
I like the comment about the West putting it’s own spin on Yoga and presenting it for a European Christian audience, that’s kind of my aim too 🙂
I am surprised by the emphasis those men had on Yoga not being for Europeans! I mean what was so different about them in 1930’s Germany that made them think that an Indian was diametrically opposed in philosophy such that it made the two incompatible? It boggles my mind, an I’d love to have a window into time to view what was going on back there, but maybe our culture as it (I won’t say today) was, pre-covid, allowed for an easier transition into other cultures by virtue of liberalism?
Oh dear, Gopi Krishna does not approve of Jung’s views. I may not like this book after all!
Chapter 1 – This idea of nature producing an individual as complete as possible – Entelechia, seems at odds with my experience of looking at humans and observing their tribal nature. There are so many incomplete humans out there with their hang ups and neurosis, that this cannot be. So many of us are on medication for mental states that are aberrant and at odds with nature.
Jane 15/09/21:
Nature is tribal hive like and alone doesn’t produce such individuals, it takes an independent divine spark. It may seem at odds with our experience of looking at others as long as it is not at odds with our own personal goal 🙂
Laz 15/09/21:
I’m fairly sure that people know that something isn’t right with our society and it is this dual expectation to conform and pretend that you are like the others around you, while at the same time know that you are not happy inside, is the cause of anxiety and depression, ADHD, and schizophrenia in the majority of cases. What was it I saw the other day that caught my eye; “Global Warming linked to Colder winters” and other nonsensical stories:
We are being bombarded with contradictory messaging, seemingly so as to bring about the famous schizophrenia of Orwell’s Doublethink. Having said that, the unique expressions of individuality are everywhere, I would agree with Jung here.Jung’s example of a loss of individuality as a cause of hatred is very strange, and that a married couple will fall out if they are too alike doesn’t make sense to me and I cannot relate to this or it being a violation of individuality!
Jane 15/09/21:
I found that a really oddly strange thing to say too. I think it all depends on where you are on your path and what level you are on. Maybe he’s another one blindly feeling a part of the elephant. Lol. But I do respect him for acknowledging that. It is almost like no one even noticed that he had? Lmao.
Laz 15/09/21:
Any time I come across the idea in Yoga of energy I can’t help but cross over to Castaneda and the collection of power. I guess it would be neat like Jung says to put it in a bottle 😀 But then I am that bottle of energy!
Jane 15/09/21:
With his limitations I too felt Jung did not fully understand the true concept of energy, so I absolutely love that 🙂
Laz 15/09/21:
Have a listen to this excerpt from this episode of my short lived radio show from 2013
Jane 15/09/21:
Yeah, your prophecy sounds to be correct. Interesting ideas on your show. But I seriously do think that many people are awake to this now. I see clear signs across the globe.
Laz 15/09/21:
I would argue that it was not enough, and the damage has already been done to our free and just society.
Jane 15/09/21:
I think peoples fears are being aroused but overcome by emotional intelligence. Demands for justice.
Funny how I mentioned a new world order in my “hallelujah” revelations that I wrote in 2012 in my diary that I sent you.
Jane 15/09/21:
It’s been with us for 100’s of years as a concept along with the mark of the beast, revelations, and Armageddon.
Laz 15/09/21:
I too was thinking along very different lines than that of the so called elite ruling the masses. Just the opposite! An enlightened ruling of a fair new world order is what I had in mind 🙂
Were you walking the dog when broadcasting that? 🙂
Laz 15/09/21:
Yes, it was my go to time for recording 🙂
Jane 15/09/21:
Just curious, was this part of what you meant about having to remove stuff you had put out on the net in your psychodrama episode regarding the illuminati?
Laz 15/09/21:
You know it 🙂 I’d gone to this recording thinking that i’d spoken about the NWO making us poor and I wanted to remind myself, but instead I found that I had called biological tyranny. Hope you didn’t mind me sharing 🙂
Jan3 15/09/21:
Of course I don’t mind you sharing, that is what we do 🙂
Laz 15/09/21:
Also I see Tonal in Sthula and Nagual in Suksma, these things are like primordial spiritual building blocks, also putting on the sunglasses or not from “They Live”, and taking the red pill or blue pill from our oft quoted template movie 🙂
Jane 15/09/21:
Yes indeed and one to which my path seems to have been so relevant, and from which I have a notion that there are more recognitions and realisations to come 🙂
Laz 16/09/21:
I do hope so for both of us. While I’ve uncovered much that is hidden I’m sure there is more
Laz 15/09/21:
It may be unfair of me to look back on Jung and think this but of course Samskaras have western equivalents. sandbanks of the mind are easy to understand as idea you hold that are your strong beliefs but are not true. These can be washed away (keeping with the sand analogy) through knowledge and experience. So for example a fear of spiders in England is stupid, there are none that are both indigenous and dangerous. Once you’ve held one and not died, or even bitten by one, that Samskara or sand bank is pushed flat and is no longer a ripple causing anxiety.
Jane 15/09/21:
I think one of my greatest gobsmack moment was when I realised just how healed psychologically my mind was by being taken back to factory settings where all got washed away was when I discovered that my extreme phobias were gone! I thought..wow! Great stuff no more stress and anxiety over what I now see was a bloody psychological illusion. mini miracle mind moment to me 🙂 Btw: I love the sandbank analogy, it is funny because my equivalent was flour and clumps being sieved and truth exposed 🙂
Laz 16/09/21:
I’m sorry to say it’s not even my idea this comes from Hinduism, my only contribution was added spiders!
Jane 17/09/21:
I have been thinking about this part of our discussion. So I don’t know if this going back to factory settings thing is portrayed in the Matrix movie? Or is it in a scene I have not watched, like a pulled plug out of the mind from all the crap? But I can see it quite clearly portrayed from our other shared path relevant movie… Star Wars. If it does not serve you….. …this says it, EXACTLY! Right?
I don’t know if it is the same for you bit I have recognised and realised those two movies for me are kind of like my path, but only if they are merged together! Maybe the Matrix film is like a representation of the tonal to me, and Star Wars film (grey Jedi level actor) is the nagual? Or maybe I am just overthinking things?
Laz 17/09/21:
I’m not really sure what you mean, sorry 🙁 Both movies show the archetype of the “heroes journey”
I think the best movie scene of resetting to “factory settings” is this, which coincidentally is also a Jesus metaphor movie:
Jane 17/09/21:
Nice. Lol. Yeah that’s a good one! I am just not familiar with any other conceptual movies 🙂
Laz 17/09/21:
Just thinking about the Matrix again, this scene is as close as it gets to what you were saying I think:
Jane 18/09/21:
So I am confused about the architect. can you explain it any better than this…The Architect is a highly specialized, humourless program of the Machine world as well as the creator of the Matrix. As the chief administrator of the system, he is possibly a collective manifestation, or at the very least a virtual representation of the entire Machine mainframe.
Laz 18/09/21:
It is a confusing part of the matrix for sure, but you seem to have nailed it (unless those aren’t your words?). He and the Oracle are the only programs to have been at the start of the Matrix and have survived all the way through.
There is a Matrix cartoon called Animatrix and that may explain it better. I’ll have a look…
Jane 18/09/21:
They are not my words, I got them from google 🙂 Yes please send me a cartoon . Lol.
Laz 18/09/21:
Not sure I can, it’s pay per view. I have the DVD and may have to watch through the episodes as the descriptions are not very telling!
On a slightly related subject, my wife turned into an Agent earlier. I had just seen the headline in the papers about the Strictly Come Dancing professional dancers who would not take the covid vaccine and thought as she was a big fan of the show that she’d be interested in discussing it. But how wrong was I, I made a big mistake pushing her on the fact that the news story was illogical and that she was a science teacher, of biology no less. She lost it with me, yelling “What do you want me to say!”
I had to leave the house.
Jane 18/09/21:
What was the problem in the discussion about it? And why was it such a problem?
Laz 18/09/21:
The illogic of it breaks her knowledge of what she believes. If unvaccinated dancers pose a risk to the vaccinated ones, then what does it mean? She knew but couldn’t say it.
If the risk to the vaccinated dancers is real then the vaccine doesn’t work, and if the vaccine doesn’t work then there is no more risk to the vaccinated dancers than unvaccinated from the virus.
If however there is no risk to anyone, then the whole instruction to take a vaccine to be safe from the virus, and suffering the consequences of taking it (which she did) was unnecessary.
So rather than try to balance the equation, she got instantly angry for my bringing it up and shut the conversation down. It had all started so innocently on my part asking if she’d seen the story, she could had said yes, and it would have all been over without any fuss!
Jane 18/09/21:
I see your logic to that, it makes sense 🙂 I think peoples egos are by nature very dualistic and believe only what they have been lead to believe coming down on one side or the other. It sets up those sandbanks. Then questioning their logic, instead of helping to wash the sand away causes anger? Just curious, could Ali be projecting anger at you for not getting the vaccine?
Laz 18/09/21:
Oh absolutely, there was definitely that feeling coming over, it’s the idea that she had to go through the pain and the shit that went with taking the vaccine, why haven’t I?!?
You know, she was a good girl and did as she was told, so i’m by virtue of being the opposite, a bad person. It’s just tribes again though. I’m clearly Rebel Scum!
Jane 18/09/21:
No, when we are not a piece/part of the tribe/hive, it’s called being an independent fully awake being 🙂
What did Ali experience? Does she regret it do you think? People in my family have refused to have it and it’s no big deal to anyone else, it’s their choice. I don’t worry about if people have had it or not. Lmao.
Laz 18/09/21:
Yeah, first she seemingly caught the virus after taking one dose, so had fever, headache, spent a day in bed. Then on the second dose, she was getting painful cramps, extremely heavy and more frequent periods, and severe pelvic pain.
She watched a BBC report on Yellow Card reporting and filed one for her adverse effects. As it seems thousands of others did too in what appears to be a bit of a scandal:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/didnt-doctors-listen-women-link-covid-vaccines-periods/
After this had passed, months later, she got stung by a bee and developed this huge dark bruise the likes of which i’ve never seen.
Jane18/09/21:
Yeah I have heard about this recently. I would say the first lot of symptoms were possibly side effects from the first vaccine. But this issue with periods does seem to be a common one. It sounds very unpleasant. I think once people realise what they have subjected themselves to there can be a subconscious “guilt” that it is self induced? Then maybe that triggers underlying anger towards others who have not.
Laz 18/09/21:
My jaw dropped at reading this today:
Jane 18/09/21:
There really is nothing that surprises me about the human hive that is the Matrix anymore.
Laz 15/09/21:
I can’t understand Jung’s obsession with the order of the chakras, and why he thinks they are upside down! It’s like he’s trying to conform Tantra to his own map of consciousness and I don’t know why. Maybe he feels his model is superior?
Jane 15/09/21:
I think he maybe perceived a model that is different from his limited western perspective?
Laz 15/09/21:
I can relate to this bit:
“as soon as you see the leviathan you will run away. But if that living spark, that urge, that need, gets you by the neck, then you cannot turn back; you have to face the music”
Jane 15/09/21:
He obviously had no K spark. He describes it as:
"a spark or incentive something forcing you through to the next centre, and that is the Kundalini but it must be something superior to your will, otherwise you don't go through it but turn back at the first obstacle.."
He was on a totally different awareness level. He has a very limited grasp of spiritual symbology. But again his only perspective of such is other people’s subjective experiences. We cannot possibly fully understand at a quantum level what we ourselves have not experienced.
Laz 15/09/21:
Oh, I’ve reached the end. That petered out without a conclusion! Maybe the lecture theatre was booked by someone else who threw Carl out by his spectacles 😀
Jane 15/09/21:
I am laughing my head off 😀
That lecture has been difficult for me to process, I mean I get everything they are saying, in English! Lol. But the terminology is so unfamiliar to me I need a foreign dictionary. Lol. The words are not easy to remember straight away, I know the chakras and stuff only by English language terminology. It makes me feel a bit ignorant. I have had to read it several times. But I understand it once I’ve deciphered it. Lol.
BTW: Hauer defined the para aspects as the causes and the real character of those centres of energy the metaphysical. Jung says regarding the metaphysical
"I must confess that there the mist begins for me, I do not risk myself there"
This limitation for Jung to me could be an explanation as to why Gopi Krishna could not agree with him?
Laz 15/09/21:
I also am struggling with the lecture. Jung is an odd man. I’m not sure his reputation is worth much having read this.
I’m with Gopi at the moment on Jung, but will push on.
Jane 16/09/21:
I think we have already got Jung sussed out as you say…
Jung understood that there is a Kundalini link in mental health psychology. With no direct experience of it. He could only report and go on others experiences. This was Jung’s cut off point in capacity or ability to process this knowledge.
Laz 16/09/21:
I wouldn’t say that, yet. We’re only on Lecture one 😊
Jane 16/09/21:
When it comes to the metaphysical aspect of the chakra system it says… Hauer had defined the
"para aspects as the causes and the real character of those centres of energy the metaphysical."
Jung says regarding the metaphysical:
"i must confess that there the mist begins for me, i do not risk myself there"
He is acknowledging his limitations in his understanding of the causes and real character of those centres he has identified.
Laz 16/09/21:
Thus far!
Jane 16/09/21:
He could not incorporate the spiritual meta part of the mind into his work. His work is missing a whole dimension, the spiritual realm of mind. As above so below is the causes and real character of those centres. It is in this ignorance that western societies are worse off.
This is why Gopi was on a completely levelled – up different dimension to Jung. Gopi had himself “Been there, done that, got the t shirt concept” into that mist so to speak 🙂
Laz 16/09/21:
Yep 😀
Jane 16/09/21:
That takes a balanced mind. And two totally different disciplines, mastered. Like bringing a tonal and nagual perspectives together. To understand the Kundalini awakening, It requires both. Psychology and spirituality…….That realm/place Jung dare not venture when he saw it as the fierce dragon to be faced.
Laz 16/09/21:
Maybe, I’m not placing any bets yet 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
Lecture 2:
"You know in India they do not say "ego" and "non-ego". They speak of buddhi personal consciousness and kundalini which is the other thing; and they never dream of identifying the two..."
So is this an explanation of why the Yaqui/Indian type philosophy does not recognise the ego as a separate part of consciousness?
Laz 22/09/21:
I mean, it might be? We are looking at different cultures on different continents but ego I think originated in Europe and spread out from there, meaning that other civilizations most likely had other ideas 🙂
Jane 23/09/21:
I agree with this and think the western mentality ego was the start of that major jihad/holy war within ourselves! Even some of the scriptures are vicious and much misinterpreted. As we have evolved the negative aspect of the human ego seemed to have develop first and to such a degree amongst the mainly, dare I say it, white man? The supremacist mindset and insatiable greed. As you point out maybe it is not so much asleep as afraid? We know that the Self can be a fearful place to go, I told you even the archbishop of Canterbury admitted that fact. The old Christianity warned of practices like meditation. I don’t know if they still do I think it may be merging in as a practice now? It’s like by constantly sweating over the small stuff keeps people so preoccupied that they don’t ever get to the big stuff. Hence the need for a perception of security to do so.
Jane 20/09/21:
So is this saying that for them kundalini and buddhi consciousness is the ego neutraliser?
Laz 22/09/21:
I’m not sure it is Kundalini per se, and Jung uses the term liberally when talking about chakras, so he could equally be talking about simply meditating on the Muladhara.
Jane 23/09/21:
Yes that does clarify and sound right 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
"individuation is not that you become an ego you would then become an individualist. You know an individualist is a man who did not succeed in individuating; he is a philosophically distilled ego, and that is very strange. Therefore nobody understands what the self is, because the self is just the thing which you are not, which is not the ego. The ego discovers itself as being a mere appendix of the self in a sort of loose connection"
This is what I meant when I said that the self is within the tonal and the ego is not the tonal but an extension to the tonal.
Laz 22/09/21:
Okay, I hadn’t realised that you had placed emphasis on “The Self” as a separate entity.
Jane 20/09/21:
So is it that the ego doesn’t exist in such philosophy or that it is just not recognised?
Laz 22/09/21:
It’s a good question! I think it is like Jung was saying about tribes laughing at Americans for believing “thinking” happened in the head, there is probably always a way of explaining the “symptoms” of an ego as we understand it, but it may be very differently imagined and structured such that it may have different facets. It’s really hard to put myself into say a Hindu’s shoes an know for sure as i’m always working with a European, if not a peculiarly English upbringing.
Jane 23/09/21:
Yes and only by seeing a more global perspective do we realise just how peculiar that we, each as different cultures actually are.
Jane 20/09/21:
It’s weird because when you transcend the ego it is seen as a necessary but self made persona of an illusion, I guess it is a suit of armour for living in the so called desert of the real. ( funny how we come to realise the desert is actually far from real, either. But I guess you need to be out of the arena to appreciate that fact ? )
Laz 22/09/21:
That’s a bit of a mixaphor there 🙂 I guess if you consider the holographic universe as also being false, then yes I agree. Kinda frames the Matrix nicely in a hierarchy of awakeness 🙂
Jane 23/09/21:
Never heard of a mixaphor. Lol. Suit of armour. As I understand it ego, is developed as we interact with others in a naturally individual competitive world, as we become adults depending how confrontational it is out there and what we perceive to be important enough to battle for, we build up our weapons and suit of armour. Shields. Most people lose track of what is true and eventually most of our thoughts are nothing more than assumptions and misperceptions The more perceived crap we envisage the more armour is required, especially in the western mind set of greed not basic need and self obsession … that is now mental health levels of imbalance. I mean out of control ego’s! Lmao. Seriously, self obsessed. It fascinates me what people will do to themselves for vanity or to get “likes” from others. In the eastern traditions it is taught and I would say shown by example by some that a contented life and peace of mind comes from within and from simplicity. Their cultural wisdom in that respect is more advanced than ours. They become True Self focused so on a different level. It is not self egoic. Yet we are all living on the same planet, in the same desert , just not mentally. Different levels of consciousness. In different countries and cultures, ways of collective thinking. Maybe because of this they can transcend the desert far easier than us. I sometimes wonder are we even meant to transcend it? I mean when I think about it and life on earth in the matrix, is that the equivalent of ejecting ourselves to game over? 😀
When Yung talked about the focus we put on crap like the media, propaganda, beliefs in the dollar basically, it is an illusion, the matrix grid. For those who are trapped inside it. As you describe it the desert made up of sandbanks of the mind of false beliefs. If we are relatively secure and psychologically balanced we can do some sandblasting and maybe even escape it. The root chakra has to be a balance in our state of mind on certain psychological and possibly spiritual issues for the ashes to spark into life and that includes regarding security. If it doesn’t people cannot awaken their consciousness to a different and higher perspective. But i know that a sense of security is psychologically relative in mind and differs for people, it can be completely opposite extremes between an eastern mindset lifestyle and a completely western one. For many westerners to feel secure they think they need the whole American dream type set up….Some in other cultures just need a mat and their own space 🙂 The so called American dream is bullshit illusion because they are never content, do not find security and nothing ever seems to be enough. Then the more they have the more stress to protect it and fear of the potential loss. It is ridiculous when seen from an outsiders perspective who believe that our “treasures are laid up in heaven”
Jane 20/09/21:
"You Europeans are funny people. To admire this house is what we do, that is what we believe. You believe in dollars and automobiles and railways, but which is wiser..."
"we read our papers, we look into the political and economic world, believing this to be the definitive thing......" "People who have an entirely different point of view as to the meaning of the world, to them we are just ridiculous, we are living in a sort of illusion about our world"
The philosophy of religions regards that root chakra then is the not getting into the attachment to materialism and laying your treasures up in heaven? The very perceptions of things like security that balance the low chakras seem to be different between cultures?
Laz 22/09/21:
I’m not really sure, I’ve never been able to identify the chakras within me, and Kundalini rising for me shot through them all in go like a bullet from a gun, so I may not be the best to comprehend Jung’s layers/levels.
Jane 23/09/21:
Yeah, me too but I did come to later understand them by the effects on our state of mind, I know there are differing versions but eg: like root/ survival, sacral/creativity, solar plexus/ self worth, heart/love, truth/throat, third eye/perception, crown/understanding. To me the balancing act of the chakras is basically achieved in mind by the 8 fold way.
Laz 22/09/21:
To me the chakras are a bit like the Christian distinction between the father, son, and holy ghost.
Jane 23/09/21:
Yes I would agree, I went via that route with kundalini referenced more as the holy spirit 🙂
"our association with the Nagual Juan Matus, our time was divided between states of normalawareness, on the right side, the tonal, where the first attention prevails, and states of heightenedawareness, on the left side, the nagual, or the site of the second attention"
This to me is what a balance means, but as Jung says in the western cultural upbringing that focus is usually always simply focused on the first attention. Nothing but tonal throughout life. That first attention is usually “me, Me, ME, ME! ” but external look at me, ego…self. Not the inner listen to me, nagual attention, I am me. True Self.
Laz 22/09/21:
It feels like chakras are a mental construct over a physical one that people learn and remember, but may not actually experience. You know, one can talk about them but have they just learnt the words, or have they had an activation!
Jane 20/09/21:
But even they talk about that heaven as an afterlife, whereas I believe it is a state of mind.
Laz 22/09/21:
I’m thinking Belinda Carlisle all of a sudden 😀
Jane 23/09/21:
Yes, love that song, it was one of my jukebox list on my path…..lol.
Laz 22/09/21:
But seriously I know there is consciousness after death, and had the training in escaping the cycle of rebirth, and Jung touched on this which made me ponder, that as sperm and eggs are one level of competition and success, our human life could also be a competition among us to reach yoga (union) at this level and there may be more to follow!
Jane 23/09/21:
Can you please elaborate on this?
Laz 22/09/21:
You may not have come across a cartoon called Rick and Morty, and I may have said this before, but in one episode there is this virtual reality game called Roy, and Morty plays the game from birth to death in a matter of minutes and believes he has experienced a whole lifetime only to come to his senses when the helmet is removed and he realises he is back in his old life. One can imagine the dissociative experience of moving beyond death into another life.
Jane 23/09/21:
Liked the cartoon 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
Is this heaven the same concept as when they use the term “Zion” in the Matrix movie?
Laz 22/09/21:
I’m sorry but I don’t really understand how Zion fits in those movies or what it means, it’s a mystery to me philosophically and religiously. I can only understand it as some odd Jewish thing I don’t know about 🙁 Mentally the closest I can get to it is that it is that place deep down within us that is good, and that place we retire to when we are in a bad spot. Evil tries to penetrate it, to corrupt your essence, and in the movie we see it being the last bastion of the good humans and despite the evil robots making an incursion into the buried city, they are repelled. The core of goodness is preserved and if you consider Neo to be in the metaphorical head of the body with the Logos, he lights up to cast our the evil, much like Kundalini shakti blasting up the spine and out of the crown chakra.
Jane 23/09/21:
I don’t understand their term Zion either, but they keep mentioning it, maybe we will find out in the next movie? 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
Btw: on the subject of the Matrix. The one I “see”. “The architect is a highly specialized, humorless program of the Machine world as well as the creator of the Matrix” Maybe as that is what is missing from the program that is It’s Achilles heal. AI does not have emotions and I can equal that mentality as a human mind if I need to but I know that humour is a vital necessity for my human/alien/divine survival. So Is humour the upper hand here?
Laz 22/09/21:
Hmmm, interesting idea. I must admit I hadn’t placed humour as a differentiator in the Matrix philosophy, there isn’t much humour in any of the movies, so it could be maybe! Mouse kinda handles humour in the first movie but its fairly serious from there on!
Jane 20/09/21:
I think it does generate a specific kind of energy. Without judgement the Matrix world is so idiotic to me that I seriously do laugh in the face of anything that could ever attempt to challenge me. Especially AI. I find it funny….I mean don’t you think…My Jedi mind skills can beat your AI arses! Lol. My intelligence isn’t artificial. I am sure you feel that way too about AI? Maybe humour is a power? An impenetrable shield? Lol. And if so, shhh, maybe just don’t tell the AI’s 😀
Laz 22/09/21:
What if I am an AI, eh? EH? 😀
Jane 23/09/21:
ROFLMAO………sorry but you can’t fool me, I know you too well, your impeccability, as don puts it, gives you away. 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
Have you noticed how human beings are actually shutting down their own sense of humour?
Laz 22/09/21:
Yeah, it’s really sad. There’s nothing funny on the TV any more, there are few niches on the internet but mostly its “comics” telling us what to do now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c]
Jane 23/09/21:
See what you mean about the comics but still laughed at the comedy 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
So is that self censorship or a manipulation of the AI? Is that becoming one and the same thing?
Laz 22/09/21:
I don’t think we are far enough along yet with real world AI to have this. It’s just good old human censorship, along with no rebellious movies or heavy metal music, mind you it was nice to see this speech the other day from Dave Mustane:
https://youtu.be/K96auHG1ud0?t=436[https://youtu.be/K96auHG1ud0?t=436]
Jane 23/09/21:
I notice you are into heavy metal music, it’s just too loud and heavy vibrationally for me because of my sensitivity to sound, being like kryptonite on my being however when I google the lyrics to these songs they are usually pretty good. I get that it is a technique used in heavy metal but I just don’t like the experience of having them shouted at me! Like, I am not deaf! 😀 I have been unable to physically shout for years, it just blows my own ears/head off! Fortunately I do not reach that point of needing to anymore 🙂
Jane 20/09/21:
They would have a job identifying me because the Matrix systems do not even have any photo ID of me because I do not possess any. Once again I don’t interact or exist in the matrix other than as a number 🙂
"was never a program created by humans to design the matrix, this would suggest that humanity not only knew about but also took part in it's own enslavement"
I don’t believe it was created by humans as intention to purposefully design the Matrix grid of enslavement either, but from my perspective, I would say it is being created by humans and has now become self perpetuated. Having observed the big picture and taken into account the overall idiocracy of life in the matrix world, I kind of see it in a slow motion as humanity sleepwalking blindly, almost willingly, it may even be instinctively as opposed to older generations? But due to psychological manipulation of self and others, into it. Parts that make up a cooperative in the hive? Or could be frogs in the pan concept? Lmao.
Laz 22/09/21:
Yes, sad isn’t it. My grandfather would be so upset at the way the world has turned, it’s almost as if everyone has forgotten tyrannies of the past, what brought them about, and how much blood was spilt to give us what we have. While I agree things need/must change, it shouldn’t be done this way, and not like this!
Jane 23/09/21:
I think that is maybe because the methods have changed so are not easily recognisable? The modern day “Hitler” mentality has its disguises. Also, if people have not lived through a period of the past, unless they study history and history is correctly recorded it can easily be forgotten or not even known, as the generations pass by. Then that history repeats like a cycle until lessons are learned. This is the very concept of “time”.
Jane 20/09/21:
I am indifferent to whether what I see is good or bad, so called. I am just the observer. Humans with egos are slaves and the most prominent place that can be found is inside their own minds! And that gets projected to the external world as a co-creation. All is mind, all is consciousness and we reap what we sow. It is true that the tech grid feeds off human energies but there is nothing outside of humanity’s mind sphere itself that is creating AI or the grids. The question is where will it take humanity? Could it revert back to a slower pace of life?
Laz 22/09/21:
For me I look to the people leading this revolution called the great reset and find that I have absolutely zero respect or trust in them. We could not be lead by a worse bunch. I keep seeing this chap Andrew Lawrence online and I chuckle every time.
Jane 20/09/21:
From Google: "Physicist Stephen Hawking said the emergence of artificial intelligence could be either the best or worst event in the history of our civilization.”
He urged creators of AI to “employ best practice and effective management, e.g. Nuclear tech was not initially invented as a weapon of mass destruction but once it is out there these things take on a life of their own. Same with internet technologies. Science and now technology could be dangerous without ethics or cross parties agreed regulation. People talk about the fears of being microchipped for things like surveillance and control but the mobile phone is almost the equivalent of exactly that! Many people are now well plugged in and totally reliant, addicted. So is that from modern day man’s free will? Choice?
I mean I am not saying that it is not meant to be that way as the future. It obviously is the future? In total contrast my generation was one of cold war mentality. Paranoid of sneaks and spies on our landline phones, todays generation are eagerly handing over their bio information of fingerprints, iris, voice and other personal recognitions including DNA to things like hereditary searches. To unregulated companies, that sell data! Even the schools are using fingerprint technology for the tuck shop! Make things more convenient for people and man will thoughtlessly jump on it?
I guess it remains to be seen the evolutionary outcome but inevitably it will all eventually end up on a centralised computer system? lol. As this lecture points out, without our divine spark to light the ember of an individual consciousness unfortunately without this K spark we remain like ashes as he put it, in that lower chakra, I would add to that plugged into their self made grid systems with so many oblivious and cannot possibly wake up. The majority of the masses I suppose. Asleep. So are they just like the frogs?
Laz 22/09/21:
Always have been, technology aside. Very few individuals “wake up” it’s why the desert of the real is sparsely populated 🙁
Jane 20/09/21:
Or could that lifestyle be the asleep masses preferred future?
Laz 22/09/21:
Someone wrote “The only thing humans do better than selfishness is laziness”, I can’t think who off the top of my head. So with so few awake people being around and with half of them being evil and wanting the sleep state to continue, I don’t know if this will ever change! The types of audience that would listen to us two are miniscule compared to those garnered by the government.
Jane 23/09/21:
That’s because the masses are deaf and blind, plugged in and have a case of Stockholm syndrome as you pointed out. 🙂 I would not expect humans to listen to me or comprehend me. No offence but most are far too dense. I am indifferent to it anyway. I just observe. Maybe we don’t need an audience as such, just a written legacy? I know I have put typed documentation into the matrix where I got to have my say. Satisfying 🙂 If you document it, energy is created and the universe has a record of it. Like your website. Source experience through human consciousness
Jane 20/09/21:
Fortunately many are waking up, seeing potential problems and jumping out of the pan so hopefully can provide the balancing of technology ethics for those asleep. Provide the checks and balances. 😀
Laz 22/09/21:
Well I enjoyed that lecture, it was more like what I was expecting to read, and it helps that I could relate to many of the things Jung said. Nothing really new in it for me but I did gain some kinship with him on the subject of leaving something behind when you are dead 🙂
Jane 23/09/21:
Nothing new I agree but I did enjoy this lecture more than the first. It was easier to read, I am still not familiar with these chakra terms. Yes some of us do tend to have that same mindset like a mission.