Jane 26/08/2021:
Part one. Chapter 1. An appointment with knowledge. This confirms what I thought about the use of drugs. The fact that what it took drugs for me to achieve, as in levels of consciousness awareness, did not take drugs for you to achieve because you was totally different to me. My mind was far too rigid and hive like. 🙂
In light of what he had said to me in those stages, I had begun to question the role of hallucinogenic plants. "Why did you make me take those power plants so many times?" I asked. He laughed and mumbled very softly, "Cause you're dumb." I heard him the first time, but I wanted to make sure and pretended I had not understood. "I beg your pardon?" I asked. "You know what I said," he replied and stood up. He tapped me on the head as he walked by me. "You're rather slow," he said. "And there was no other way to jolt you." "So none of that was absolutely necessary?" I asked. "It was, in your case. There are other types of people, however, that do not seem to need them."
This reference is a good one on the hive mind.
"Who are the black magicians, don Juan?" "Our fellow men are the black magicians. And since you are with them, you too are a black magician. Think for a moment. Can you deviate from the path that they've lined up for you? No. Your thoughts and your actions are fixed forever in their terms. That is slavery. "It has to be solo as we only have a brain that can deal with things individually. As much as I would like to access a hive mind, I am but singular in my experience,"
I am really curious as to why you would like to access to a hive mind? It was by being trapped in that position myself that I now know was the main reason I crashed and nearly burned. I just couldn’t cope anymore. I had an innately and intuitively individual human mind that was plugged into the hive mind branch of the matrix systems. One that most people are oblivious to, making it difficult to detach from.
Laz 30/08/21:
I guess to prove to myself that it is possible, to experience it would be for me another confirmation of spirit and the communication between each node.
Jane 26/08/21:
The hive mentality for me could no longer be tolerated. Many of the shields my ego had developed no longer served me and had in fact become detrimental to me. It seems there were just too many of the required gap skills for me to fill that I did not have by continuing my life inside the matrix. So it seems my path/goal was to escape it, in order for me to go solo 🙂
Don tells Carlos that “writing was his best protective shield that he had” at one point in a situation he tells Carlos “write your notes write, write or you’ll die” I think I can relate to this as a gap filler skill?
Laz 30/08/21:
Oh yes, I did it and do it relentlessly
Jane 26/08/21:
My only companion was ‘dear diary’ for many years I could not tell anyone anything so I wrote everything down even the simplest things as in a one way conversation. I know it was used as a processing technique but it wasn’t like it could respond back so I would tend to write almost obsessively. Because I couldn’t talk/speak. 🤐So maybe I had the same gap filler skill as Carlos?
Laz 30/08/21:
Me too 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
Absolutely we have this same gap filler skill 😀
I noted straight away when making a comparison that what i was doing in physical writing in a diary, with pen in hand incessantly for 20 years, you was doing the same on your website. Exactly the same one pointed like focused intention, just different tools of expression. Yours being far more creative than mine :)Oh yes, I did it and do it relentlessly. These realms of mind is where i feel like i am in my absolute element where i can get lost for hours on end. At times it can feel a bit like ocd to me, but not in a bad way :)Maybe ocd in this context is used as a gap filler too? 😀
Laz 31/08/21:
Yes I would say it is a gap filler 🙂 I don’t consider myself to be OCD in doing the documentation, rather it is a calling for me.
Jane 26/08/21:
As you already know, your spirit was unbalanced. To counteract that I taught you to live the warrior's way. Well, a warrior starts off with the certainty that his spirit is off balance; then by living in full control and awareness, but without hurry or compulsion, he does his ultimate best to gain this balance. In your case, as in the case of every man, your imbalance was due to the sum total of your actions
So this really resonated with me. I came to recognise how I had created my own medical conditions with my psychological reactions to life. Basically my own mind. That is one revelation that an ego can find impossible to accept. In my case, every chakra was out of balance when I first became “ill”/ incapacitated. I didn’t just have psychological problems, it had physically manifested as blockages/imbalances in my body corresponding to each chakra.
Laz 30/08/21:
Well yes, but subtle body rather than physical 🙂
Jane 26/08/21:
It was not until I had stopped the internal dialogue and incessant chatter of the hive mind, that I could recognise that and see the unadulterated truth. But this is what I would say was my practice for the first 3 years preceding my 40 day Kundalini episode. By which time all chakras had been prepared for the event by correction in my psychological mind and ways of thinking.
"What is the totality of oneself, don Juan?" "I said that I was only going to mention it. There are still a lot of loose ends in your life that you must tie together before we can talk about the totality of oneself." "The double is the self; that explanation should suffice" "A sorcerer has no notion that he is in two places at once. To be aware of that would be the equivalent of facing his double, and the sorcerer that finds himself face to face with himself is a dead sorcerer. That is the rule. That is the way power has set things up. No one knows why."
Is this a limitation for Don, because I see this as meaning dead, as in the sorcerer phase is over because that level is transcended by the facing off with the true self within! Like the spiritual symbolic /ego death? This is the greatest fear on the path for an ego but the irony is the only fear was of itself!
Laz 30/08/21:
I don’t really know, I have trouble understanding this double stuff. I mean I’ve felt my double but don’t really know what it/who it is. Maybe you are right and it is like the ego self.
Jane 26/008/21:
Don did not experience the death of his own ego, so he could be using this perception as one of his own personal gap filler skills?
Laz 30/08/21:
I’m not sure, the Ego doesn’t really fit into the Yaqui philosophy, at one point Don Juan talks with Carlos about it and I think he says it is roughly equivalent to “The Tonal”.
Jane 31/08/21:
What I mean is that when someone says ” no one knows” it can be their own limited perceptions on a subject as in they don’t know. Ignorance as a skill gap filler?
Laz 31/08/21:
It is a dangerous thing for a warrior to fill a gap with, but I suppose it would work for a time! Kind of like the toothache example above.
Jane 31/08/21:
This rule as don calls it is what I call a universal safety valve to prevent power going to the wrong hands. We are either worthy or we are not and it is in our own vibrations. Like pulling the Excalibur sword from the stone.
Laz 31/08/21:
Yes, I like that resolution 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
When it comes to the ego, as I have said previously, to me, everything in the matrix is dual in nature, including human egos. Dark ego and light ego are poles apart, one used for negative or self interest the other positive for good of others. So i guess a sorcerer is no different? Maybe they do need to have egos? I am still not sure on that point?
Laz 31/08/21:
So without the term ego (which I think came from Freud) in the Yaqui vocabulary I can’t see the two cultures gelling on this.
Jane 01/09/21:
This is interesting that you say that, i have been curious about this for a while.
So maybe the very concept of ego was a white man thing?
Laz 01/09/21:
I mean I don’t doubt the philosophy and it works for me, but it is a viewpoint only. It’s not like God stepped in and awarded Sigmund 100 points for being correct 😀
Jane 01/09/21:
Not recognised in the yaqui indians as being part of their philosophical culture, therefore having no equivalent in their vocabulary?
Laz 01/09/21:
No, the closest they get I think is the Tonal concept.
Jane 01/09/21:
I am sure it was probably the same with christian missionaries that first introduced sin /guilt onto the more simple primitive mindset?
Jane 31/08/21:
It seems the death of the ego equals the death of the sorcerer who then becomes a man of knowledge?
Laz 31/08/21:
Again, i’m not sure as the “ego” term doesn’t exist for them. Broadly I agree however from my own spiritual language 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
Power is not attained by self will, in my understanding a man of knowledge has power because he has given up his will.
Jane 26/08/21:
Don explains …
"Knowledge and power. Men of knowledge have both. And yet none of them could tell how they got to have them, except that they had kept on acting like warriors and at a given moment everything changed."
Can you relate to this?
Laz 30/08/21:
I can relate to everything changing suddenly for me yes, but my knowledge has come from seeking understanding. Maybe he refers to the will to seek understanding, and I have no idea where that comes from. As for power, I have personal power that I have harvested and I store. I guess the learning of collection triggered me to plug the leaks!
Jane 31/08/21:
Yes that would make sense, the seeking to understand. I relate to this as in I went through so many different apprenticeships but didn’t practice any of them because I cut off self volition. I surrendered early on knowing that was not my path. Working as a warrior, with relentless commitment and dedication, with no giving in to temptation or of feeling special, continuous surrendering up of abilities and knowledge to source. Like working away inside a solo pressurised bubble. Then the breakthroughs come when it starts to make sense. You cannot make sense of things when doing sources will at the time of the doing it, not when it involves an over time process. This is why reflection and the full benefits of hindsight is the only way I can make sense of some things. Like seeing your own big picture as consequences of sources will as it was acting out.
Laz 31/08/21:
I can relate. This is the act of faith 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
It is incredible to me that you was aware enough and you learned very quickly to plug the leaks and prevent serious “contamination” by the collection. 🙂
Laz 31/08/21:
I can’t claim this as my achievement, it is just the way I am, the way I was made. I’ll give thanks to my parents 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
So I escaped the hive 20 years ago and became a lone wolf whereas you always was one.
Laz 31/08/21:
Always have been 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
I recall now that in my earliest phase I was given the name “mystical white wolf 7” I had no idea why. I did not chose it, my sister informed me it was my name in spirit? It is interesting to me that my sister and I had a kundalini awakening around the same time but unfortunately she could not handle it and it closed down for her. She would get so angry at god for everything in her life. Bless her, she is just one of those negative energy types. My Husband will say she could start an argument with a scarecrow in a field and it is kind of true. 😀
Laz 31/08/21:
That is sad for her, I think my mother may be in the same boat 🙁
Jane 31/08/21:
I often wonder if it was because of the religious beliefs from her conversion to Catholicism when younger, that messed up her awakening whereas I had gone the other way to atheism.
Laz 31/08/21:
Me too, I can’t claim that I had a catholic upbringing but I went to church, Sunday school, Christian schools named St. Clements and St. Georges. It all pushed me to look elsewhere from the Christian teachings, until I came full circle and found Jesus, alone, and naked, standing apart from his legacy. Co-option I think it’s called, where a radical is used to bring in the punters only for them to be sold a lie other than the radicals teachings. Like this:
Jane 01/09/21:
Yes me too. I have a large print bible with the words spoken by Jesus printed in red the rest in black, I only read the red words and discovered that they were the core truth and universal laws.
Jane 31/08/21:
It was strange because she gave me my first books including the light shall set you free that set me on the right path but told me that she was not allowed to read them herself?
Laz 31/08/21:
That’s an odd way to put it, did someone else really tell her she was not allowed?
Jane 31/08/21:
No one can tell my sister anything, she was telling herself!
She has a lot of that subconscious Christian mentality of self denial that I think comes from Catholicism?
Jane 31/08/21:
She said it was not her path. She has that older generation, stuck, rigid mindset and has no interest in things like human psychology and without that knowledge of understanding ourselves we cannot get very far to self realisation.
Laz 31/08/21:
I can confirm that there are plenty of Millennials and Generation Z that also think this way, it is not an older generation thing, sadly 🙁
Jane 31/08/21:
I had always mistaken her way out experiences and psychic abilities as her being way more spiritually advanced than me but came to realise the illusion in that perception for those trapped in that psychic 4th dimension. Where the sorcerers play, I guess?
Laz 30/08/21:
Maybe the balance of understanding and power at one point triggered events for me!
Jane 31/08/21:
Yes I think you could be right 🙂
Jane 26/08/21:
Chapter 2. The dreamer and the dreamed. Carlos says of Don….
"He casually remarked that I was somber and heavy. He said that I reminded him of Eligio, who was morbid enough to be a good sorcerer but too morbid to become a man of knowledge"
I would say that more describes Don himself and not Carlos?
Laz 30/08/21:
Interesting I would not consider Juan to be morbid.
Jane 31/09/21:
I understand a part of the process is being acutely aware of things like ones own death but don seems fixated on the issue. That could be just put on for Carlos though in the specific stage of warrior training? Maybe that is the lot of a mind in constant warrior mode ? Worrier mode, Like a self defence mechanism? Another gap filler skill maybe?
Laz 31/08/21:
Yes, I can relate to that. There is a flip side to this however, and maybe why I see Juan differently. If one is told that a toothache will only get more painful unless they have it seen to, is that negative? I see it simply as good sense, but alas many will just hope the pain goes away and try to ignore it by being “positive” 🙂
Jane 26/08/21:
Don Juan intervened and explained that don Genaro was referring to the first emergence of the awareness that we are luminous beings. "Each one of us is different, and thus the details of our struggles are different," don Juan said. "The steps that we follow to arrive at the double are the same, though. Especially the beginning steps, which are muddled and uncertain." Don Genaro agreed and made a comment on the uncertainty that a sorcerer had at that stage. "When it first happened to me, I didn't know it had happened," he explained. " ...... "I looked across the road to the place where I had been sleeping and I nearly dropped my pants with fright. I was still there asleep! It was me!"
This reminds me of my out of body experience whilst giving birth.. That moment when your consciousness is experienced as being in two different places and as a separate thing from the physical body. As I say it was forgotten or supressed in the trauma but I believe that was my first encounter of my double. I only had to experience it once. I was awestruck by the experience but rather than any fear, it had relieved me temporarily of the painful experience of which I could take no more that caused it. I remember thinking, wow, no pain up here, but after a while of observing myself and the scene down below for a short while, I remember thinking that I had to return and finish the job, that resulted in 33 stitches. Hence the trauma.
Laz 30/08/21:
So that makes the double not your ego, but your Astral body? I’d love to have a classic astral projection experience, alas it is not something i’ve had, yet.
Jane 31/08/21:
Yes, you are right, I see now that was what they refer to as the double. I don’t think any of this is a necessity to experience for an expanded consciousness in a non rigid mind. I think it is all designed to confront yourself with shock experiences and wake up the sleeping. People tend to think that “way out” experiences of consciousness means more spiritually advanced but I don’t believe it does, in fact I think the more evolved you are naturally the less of the way out stuff you need to or indeed will experience.
Laz 31/08/21:
For me it was about clearing my past, and possibly a generational cleansing back before my birth (although i’m still not comfortable with that idea), so I had to work through the shit in my life, and I had quite a lot of it so it turns out. But others may get an easy ride if they have lead perfect lives!
Overdramatization is a hall mark of human nature unfortunately, and it seems to be getting more extreme!
Jane 31/08/21:
Spirituality to me is developing a specific state of mind and that tends to get dramatised and too over complicated by the new age fanatics. The search is not easy when it starts on low levels as it creates it’s projection into the physical realm, overdramatisation seems to be the M.O. of many on that level. But in some I guess that is the only way their minds can make sense of it. As with the theatrics performed in shamanism. You can easily tell what level of consciousness a person has attained regardless of their experiences by observing their character. But as you say for the real deal, it takes one to know one 🙂
Jane 26/08/21:
"The double simply tapped you on the neck, on the same spot the ally walked over you years ago" I see this as the moment, many years later when I finally woke up! "Yet I couldn't have known how to help. I was not dumb, though, and I realized that the scene was there for me to watch, not to act in."
Is this referring to the observer?
"This is a place of power for you," don Genaro said in a whisper. "You've written your fingers off right where you are sitting"
I can relate, the written word for me has always been a channel of energy. So when they talk about dreaming, does that include the consciousness concept of daydreaming? Those realms you can naturally drift into whilst awake, as in not sleeping?
Laz 30/08/21:
As with other Castaneda terms Dreaming is a reserved word and is the second attention that can be obtained, it is more like lucid dreaming where you control the narrative.
Jane 31/08/21:
So is the practice of lucid dreaming the same concept and practice for lucid living. As in fully aware, awake and in control?
Laz 31/08/21:
Ooh, lucid living, that’s a great concept. Everyone’s trying to wake up in their dreams but are they awake in the day!?! I know I’m awake from 9 – 5 , but unfortunately I know many are not 🙁
Jane 26/08/21:
Chapter 3. The secret of luminous beings..
"If you have enough personal power you will decide with absolute certainty the right time to leave the house. How leaving at the precise time will guide you is something that no one knows. And yet, if you have enough power, you yourself will attest that this is so." "But how am I going to be guided, don Juan?" "No one knows that either."
Is he talking about intuition here, or maybe synchronicity or is it somethings else?
Laz 30/08/21:
As I understand it, this is a knowledge of when to act temporally. As a metaphor you could imagine jumping through a child’s swing. Jump too soon and you hit the swing, jump too late and you may clear the seat but it may swing back and hit you. It’s all about the timing of when to jump so that you safely make it over the seat and through the ropes and are able to step out of the way before it swings back.
Jane 31/08/21:
So is that like a full tune in of frequencies to the instincts maybe? A kind of quantum level universal guidance system? Lol.
Laz 31/08/21:
I like that idea, a spiritual GPS 🙂 “In 100 hundred yards take the second leap of faith!”
Jane 26/08/21:
"Fortunately, it is not the reason which puts ally together. It is the body. You have perceived ally in many degrees and on many occasions. Each of those perceptions was stored in your body. The sum of those pieces is the ally. I don't know any other way of describing it."
So the sum of those pieces is the big picture of truth of the self. Whole. Those broken into pieces part of the self that we put back together? as you have said don dramatized the truth as ally.
"He said that that was precisely why water was beneficial form, I was indifferent towards it. Under conditions of stress water could not trap me, but neither could it reject me"
So is this saying that Carlos’s indifference was a gap filler skill?
Laz 30/08/21:
Yes he had a water shield and could safely be indifferent to it, where as someone who had lost their water shield had to take being immersed in it seriously to avoid becoming trapped.
Jane 26/08/21:
"You must first experience the ally. You must perceive it in its full force, then the sorcerers' explanation may throw light upon it"
Does this mean having experience of truth as a perception before any explanation would make sense?
Laz 30/08/21:
I mean, that makes sense, but Juan is talking about a moth being Carlos’s ally and him needing to experience the moth in full force.
Jane 31/08/21:
So the ally is a dramatization of truth and allies are different for everyone. So the moth just happened to be the ally in this case to be the full force experience.
Laz 31/08/21:
Yes, I would say that they are.
Jane 31/08/21:
The moth as a concept itself being symbolic of truth. What is also interesting to me is that my closest experience to source has been my “moth to the flame” experience as I have explained before.
Laz 30/08/21:
I guess you can relate to Carlos here then 🙂 I get confused between the ally and the Guardian of the underworld which appeared to Carlos as a giant Gnat. To your other point, I experienced Kundalini without knowing what it was, and gained the explanation later, so I can relate to that at least 🙂
Jane 31/08/21:
So, we have determined that the ally is the shower of truth, so what is your definition of guardian of the underworld? I know in mythology it is the place of the dead. I don’t buy that.
Laz 31/08/21:
It is a test in essence, something so horrific to you personally that you are scared out of your wits and yet you face it, if you can. For me it was the beast that came out of the pit of hell for my soul, for Carlos it was a giant fly. I’m not sure what it would be for anyone else, I guess it’s personal.
Jane 31/08/21:
To me the journey to the other side through the underworld supposedly for those who have died is the symbolic path to those who seek enlightenment in life. They describe the guardian as the way shower or vehicle to the other realms. I understand the concept of the underworld as the deep recesses of the subconscious of the human mind. That shadow side in the basement where all the crap is kept.. Being in sub terrain it is not easily accessible, things like hypnosis, shamanics or deep self work can access it. The guardian can mean different things as in guarding the gate to prevent passage or the guardian being the helper as in our own inner guardian to gain safe passage, so in a sense they could be one and the same thing?
Laz 31/08/21:
Not sure, when I die, i’ll come back and let you know 🙂
Jane 26/08/21:
"What are the other two points, don Juan?" He looked at me and smiled. "You're a lot stronger now than you were the first time we talked about this diagram," he said. "But you're not yet strong enough to know all the eight points. Genaro will someday show you the other two." "Does everybody have those eight points or only sorcerers?" "We may say that every one of us brings to the world eight points. Two of them, reason and talking, are known by everyone. Feeling is always vague but somehow familiar. But only in the world of sorcerers does one get fully acquainted with dreaming, seeing and will. And finally, at the outer edge of that world one encounters the other two. The eight points make the totality of ones self." "The outer form is of no importance," he said. "These points represent a human being and can be drawn in any way you want." "Do they represent the body of a human being?" I asked. "Don't call it the body," he said. "These are eight points on the fibers of a luminous being. A sorcerer says, as you can see in the diagram, that a human being is, first of all, will, because will is directly connected to three points, feeling, dreaming and seeing; then next, a human being is reason. This is properly a center that is smaller than will; it is connected only with talking." "I asked him if the eight points corresponded to areas or to certain organs in a human being. "They do," he replied dryly and erased the diagram" "Genaro demonstrated for you with tremendous force and clarity that we are a feeling and that what we call our body is a cluster of luminous fibers that have awareness"
Can you tell me what these two other points are? Are they like the higher chakra centres?
Laz 30/08/21:
I don’t believe them to be chakras, rather as you can see above they are the Nagual and the Tonal. Tonal is a rational brain that labels everything and keeps order so there are no surprises in your life, it is like a policeman that tells you what you can and cannot think. The Nagual then is all the illegal things to think, and experiences and acts that you are not allowed to do, it’s like all the magic and the pixies and the secret moves you can make tucked away under your experience of life and sometimes inexplicable things will happen that your Tonal will tell you didn’t happen as it would break the rules of your brain, but, you know you just experienced it!
Jane 31/08/21:
I love the way you put that…..”break the rules of your brain” 😀 Maybe that is because the tonal conditioning is what lays down them rules. So i have never heard those terms tonal or nagual before, it sounds a bit like the two opposing sides of the scientific logical and creative spiritual brain? Objective v subjective? Oh, OK …The tonal and the nagual. Title of the next section in my book 🙂
Laz 31/08/21:
There you go, perfect timing 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"We sense, from the moment we are born, that there are two parts to us. At the time of birth, and for a while after, we are all nagual. We sense, then, that in order to function we need a counterpart to what we have. The tonal is missing and that gives us, from the very beginning, a feeling of incompleteness. Then the tonal starts to develop and it becomes utterly important to our functioning, so important that it opaques the shine of the nagual, it overwhelms it."
So it sounds to me like the tonal is the Self. The individual awareness that develops and takes over from the pure diffuse like connection to the nagual that is naturally lost as we develop our awareness.
"From the moment we become all tonal we begin making pairs. We sense our two sides, but we always represent them with items of the tonal. We say that the two parts of us are the soul and the body. Or mind and matter. Or good and evil. God and Satan. We never realize, however, that we are merely pairing things on the island, very much like pairing coffee and tea"
I can certainly relate to this as the Matrix realm of duality. And why I have such an indifference to it.
Laz 04/09/21:
I’m still polarised as you know 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"There are, roughly speaking, two sides to every tonal. One is the outer part, the fringe, thevsurface of the island. That's the part related to action and acting, the rugged side. The other part is the decision and judgment, the inner tonal, softer, more delicate and more complex. The proper tonal is a tonal where the two levels are in perfect harmony and balance."
I would say this is the opposites within our individual self mind/brains of things like male and female, scientific versus spiritual, left and right working brains. Objective and subjective mind realms. And that the tonal and the nagual are two completely different realms of mind consciousness. The tonal being the realm of the grounded self, the nagual the realm of free spirit?
Laz 04/09/21:
I look at it more like Tonal being perceptions about things i’ve experienced which colour my actions, and Nagual being the fantastic unnamed unknown which I closed myself off from early in life.
Jane 03/09/21:
This to me is the same as the Rebus thing.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yeah, I think Rebis was more of a map for a journey, or a lesson in how to live but it is in similar mind-space for sure.
Jane 03/09/21:
Jordan has explained some of it where he talked about the marriage concept and Adam and Eve. I see this as the split you talked about, where we lose innocence by gaining awareness ‘”from the moment we become all tonal” and the fall is from the nagual and it necessarily separates us as incarnated beings, and we “fall” from that place of androgynous, indifferent and non duality consciousness we were in when we was in the undifferentiated flow in the nagual. Dropped down into the physical world via the laws and realm of duality straight into a meatbag and mind that can only be one or the other, either a male or a female. We only get one brain/mind. We immediately are in an psycho- mind arena that is playing out in the world around us, in the collective and within ourselves, that great big human game…. “The battle of the sexes”.
Laz 04/09/21:
It’s interesting to me that this is still raging on, and affecting the young today, despite the huge efforts people at least outwardly put into equality. My eldest daughter told me they other day that she is the only girl in her class that plays computer games, which shocked me as I thought we had gotten past computers are for boys! When I asked what the other girls play, she thought it was Barbies mostly 🙁
Jane 03/09/21:
The two sides we are sensing as don puts it is our own inner male and female regardless which kind of meatbag we are born into. Like all polarising energies we crave equilibrium in a dualistic realm. This is where Kundalini energy did its work on me. We get one mind but it can regain the androgynous balance of gender whilst still incarnated in a single gender hormonalised meatbag. 😀
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, clearing out that programming 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
But I guess that mind has to have transcended out of (risen above) the duality and I cannot say for sure if you have to be literally off planet to do that? I think I get what you mean about the tonal and the ego and it makes sense. I am no longer perceiving the tonal as the same entity as what I would class the ego. but rather as the self that is separate from but incorporates the ego, so the tonal remains after dissolution of the ego.
Laz 04/09/21:
I used to have an excellent diagram visualising the islands of the tonal and nagual, but I don’t know where I put it or where it came from. An internet search hasn’t found it either. If I come across it i’ll share it, it may even be in my website somewhere…
Jane 03/09/21:
I don’t know if it is because I am out of the Matrix part of the arena but I told you I don’t feel in any way shieldless. I am a neutral harmless energy but I have the mind skills to take on anyone. Like a grey Jedi, lol.
Laz 04/09/21:
I would think it definitely is because of your isolation, and I don’t want that to come across as negative as I would love to be in your position. To not have to deal with assholes on a daily basis in the flesh would be lovely, but having said that i’ve partially removed myself through remote working and long may it continue 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
I don’t see anything negative about it. I know it is has all come about due to my isolation, as difficult as this has been i am well aware that i am in a fortunate situation 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
But I accepted that it did not necessarily mean I had got my shields back. But I think maybe by being out of the arena, that we develop a different conceptual category of gap filler skills that I would say do create a kind of mind shield? But from a different energy level of consciousness.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, I could see that happening 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
Or maybe from higher mind it is the centre point between tonal and nagual? Maybe that is what creates these alien like, gap filler skills in the first place? That to us we just see as, well …. just god given skills! i.e. doing Sources work? 🙂
Laz 04/09/21:
For sure and I would say that most people, very early in life, place that idea of doing something for source on the island of the tonal as a clear sign of mental illness 🙁 Then they never go there again, as “Here be dragons!”
Jane 03/09/21:
"This is the sorcerers' explanation. The nagual is the unspeakable. All the possible feelings and beings and selves float in it like barges, peaceful, unaltered, forever. Then the glue of life binds some of them together"
I think this is the undifferentiated collective before we become a tonal? Individual Self. In esoteric words described as “The great unmanifest lying above the seventh plane and as being a reservoir of infinite potential force when it becomes actual”
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes before we categorise things as possible and not possible 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
Above the seventh plane All are one and one is All, no closer union being possible than that which has existed from the dawn of manifestation
"The seventh plane is the plane of pure abstract spirit and first plane of manifestation"
"There is a personal tonal for every one of us, and there is a collective one for all of us at any given time, which we can call the tonal of the times."
The individual consciousness awareness and the shared collective consciousness?
Laz 04/09/21:
I don’t believe there is a shared collective consciousness, and all that we think can be a personal Tonal without the need for the shared aspect. However we have copies of aspects of Tonal to our upbringing and due to the people we associate with, which is why that island must be cleared 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
Maybe that is because you have never been a part of a hive?
Laz 04/09/21:
Oh man, that had filled me with dread, to think that a large portion of my species (maybe my species!) are of a hive mind! That can’t be right, can it! How could I have been produced from this world and be so different consciously?
Jane 04/09/21:
I questioned that about you ages ago! 😀
Jane 03/09/21:
"I would say then that the tonal is a guardian that protects something priceless, our very being. Therefore, an inherent quality of the tonal is to be cagey and jealous of its doings. And since its doings are by far the most important part of our lives, it is no wonder that it eventually changes, in every one of us, from a guardian into a guard."
Laz 04/09/21:
I could see the Tonal as a guardian of compliance, and of straying too far from the community. Clearly the unknown Nagual is feared by the majority so they build up anti-patterns in the Tonal to stop people going that way. Think Jonathan Livingstone Seagull, and in that sense the Nagual is indeed priceless 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
I had to google it, what a great story 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"A guardian is broad-minded and understanding," he explained.
"A guard, on the other hand, is a vigilante, narrow-minded and most of the time despotic. I say, then, that the tonal in all of us has been made into a petty and despotic guard when it should be a broad-minded guardian."
The tonal becomes the guard. We develop gap filler skills, as I say it was my guard part that became detrimental to me. But I was destined to leave the arena so that is not to say it necessarily is for others. But I would say we use our only known self survival strategies and I was living in a bloody hive! Lmao.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, ant-like isn’t it! and the colony is growing in numbers and strength.
Jane 03/09/21:
We need our guard and guardian. Our true guardian part, that parent within, comes from our own Kundalini energy.
Laz 04/09/21:
I can’t agree with this, sorry. Kundalini for me was a freeing from any barrier between me and the source, whether benevolent guardian, or fascist guard. One might then move the goalposts and say the source itself is the final boss! but I’ve not had this experience with it, rather it is unconditional love.
Jane 04/09/21:
Yes I can understand what you say 🙂
Laz 03/09/21:
"Without the awareness of death everything is ordinary, trivial. It is only because death is stalking us that the world is an unfathomable mystery. So you see, without an awareness of the presence of our death there is no power, no mystery."
You see this in the extraordinary transformative change in some of those who are survivors of close death encounters or things like cancer. It is like the overwhelming experience gives a renewed lease of life and appreciation for life following such a close encounter with death, some are “born again” by it. I guess it is a contact with the nagual?
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, and a de facto clearing of the island of the Tonal 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"What a warrior does in journeying into the unknown is very much like dying, except that his cluster of single feelings do not disintegrate but expand a bit without losing their togetherness"
"Is the nagual the Supreme Being, the Almighty, God?" I asked.
"No. God is also on the table. Let's say that God is the tablecloth." He made a joking gesture of pulling the tablecloth in order to stack it up with the rest of the items he had put in front of me.
"But, are you saying that God does not exist?"
"No. I didn't say that. All I said was that the nagual was not God, because God is an item of our personal tonal and of the tonal of the times. The tonal is, as I've already said, everything we think the world is composed of, including God, of course. God has no more importance other than being a part of the tonal of our time."
"In my understanding, don Juan, God is everything. Aren't we talking about the same thing?"
"No. God is only everything you can think of, therefore, properly speaking, he is only another item on the island. God cannot be witnessed at will, he can only be talked about. The nagual, on the other hand, is at the service of the warrior. It can be witnessed, but it cannot be talked about."
So is Don referring to God as being what I term that realm human realm of consciousness and belief of what is perceived as the planetary god?
Laz 04/09/21:
I’m not sure what a planetary god is? If we look at the religions and their gods around the planet, there are many gods.
Jane 04/09/21:
I mean the religious gods, that need for a saviour provided by religions and their beliefs, for those afraid of going to hell.
Jane 03/09/21:
"The white man, from the day he set foot on this land, has systematically destroyed not only the Indian tonal of the time, but also the personal tonal of every Indian"
Yes, I don’t think we need to elaborate on this to agree with Don on that statement?
Laz 04/09/21:
Agreed, did you see the Mexican president apologise the other day for Spain’s historical actions? Kinda silly in this time frame, but very true none the less.
Jane 04/09/21:
Yes I agree. A token in acknowledgement of past wrong doing and seeking forgiveness, but of things done by our ancestors.
Jane 03/09/21:
"After the tonal of the time and the personal tonal of every Indian was obliterated, the sorcerers found themselves holding on to the only thing left uncontested, the nagual. In other words, their tonal took refuge in their nagual. This couldn't have happened had it not been for the excruciating conditions of a vanquished people. The men of knowledge of today are the product of those conditions and are the ultimate connoisseurs of the nagual since they were left there thoroughly alone. There, the white man has never ventured. In fact, he doesn't even have the idea it exists."
I would relate to this but say this it was the Matrix folly and idiocracy we take refuge from?
Laz 04/09/21:
I mean, our race has probably not experienced this culture obliteration since the times of the Vikings or Rome invading, but yes
Jane 03/09/21:
"The idea is that at the moment of death the other member of the true pair, the nagual, becomes fully operative and the awareness and memories and perceptions stored in our calves and thighs, in our back and shoulders and neck, begin to expand and disintegrate"
This sounds like a life review as described by some people in a NDE.
Laz 04/09/21:
The last one yes, the journey through the tunnel of light, or the meeting with saint Peter, or the life review before actual death 🙂
03/09/21:
I know for an absolute fact that we do store this stuff in our body cells. I had to clear it all out.
Laz 04/09/21:
I think so too, genetic memory is definitely a thing, and I fear genetic curse is also true 🙁
03/09/21:
"On certain occasions, however, or under certain special circumstances, something in the tonal itself becomes aware that there is more to us. It is like a voice that comes from the depths, the voice of the nagual"
I would say is when the higher being part of us makes contact and if we listen, we awaken. This could even relate to a Kundalini activation?
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, I agree 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"The totality of ourselves is a very tacky affair," he said.
"We need only a very small portion of it to fulfil the most complex tasks of life. Yet when we die, we die with the totality of ourselves. A sorcerer asks the question, 'If we're going to die with the totality of ourselves, why not, then, live with that totality?'
The difference between those sleeping through life and those living awake and lucidly.
"Look at them!" don Juan said in a low voice.
"Those women are the best example of the most miserable tonal one can find."
😀 I just found that really funny. I was witnessing the scene.
"Does the nagual have consciousness? Is it aware of things?"
"Of course. It is aware of everything. Nagual is all around the tonal"
The universal source of consciousness?
Laz 04/09/21:
I think the source is elsewhere, but it its definitely where the magic our scientists tell us is crap, lives.
Jane 03/09/21:
"The tonal of every one of us is but a reflection of that indescribable unknown filled with order; the nagual of every one of us is but a reflection of that indescribable void that contains everything."
So Don says the nagual cannot be explained. From what I have read and the way it is being referred to, this term nagual seems to cover a lot from my perceptions of it. Things like.. Universal source consciousness.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, exactly right. I think explaining it would tie it to the island of the Tonal which is why Christian god lives in the tonal.
Jane 03/09/21:
The connecting and elemental forces around us. Internal guardian. Kundalini energy. Working through us.
So is the nagual a realm that is comprised of different, multidimensional frequencies of the same energy emanating from the great central source incorporating all of the above?
Laz 04/09/21:
Completely agree with the first part of this, but from your list I would say consciousness exists elsewhere.
Jane 03/09/21:
Does the nagual also mean within us a place or point through which we make contact or gain access to this different realm of mind and energies?
Laz 04/09/21:
I’m not sure, for me the Nagual is unknowable but is experienceable as soon as you label it, it moves to the Tonal island.
Jane 03/09/21:
So, Hawkins scale of consciousness shows how the lower human vibrations are of the tonal and the higher up the scale is more the nagual type vibrations?
Laz 04/09/21:
This doesn’t feel right to me, I think that the higher up Hawkins scale you are, the more likely you are to recognise the lie of the Tonal, and have Nagual experiences but this doesn’t preclude lower vibration people from having Nagual experiences, but probably means they will dismiss them and forget about them to maintain their island of the Tonal where they do not fit. Also those at the top of Hawkins scale, the Christ consciousness level folks have to use Tonal to be able to relate to those lower down the scale, otherwise they’d just be sitting under the bodhi tree meditating until death, never interacting with anyone.
Jane 03/09/21:
"Don Juan shifted my head to the right until it was resting on my shoulder. Don Genaro's position on the branch seemed perfectly normal, but when he moved onto the trunk again, I could not make the necessary perceptual adjustment and I saw him as if he were upside down, with his head towards the ground. Don Genaro moved back and forth various times, and don Juan shifted my head from side to side every time don Genaro moved. The result of their manipulations was that I completely lost track of my normal perspective, and without it don Genaro's actions were not as awesome"
So I see this as an example of the process using theatrical practice in acting out things like mind shifts in perceptions in order to give Carlos the concept. That of a multi perspective view on something, the only way to truly “see”. Then it will process in Carlos’s mind over time as in filter down and as he reviews and reflects on the experience and his written notes until it registers as lesson learned?
"His reply was that I needed time to let all those impressions settle down, and that once I had done that, answers would just pour out of me in the same manner that questions had poured out of me in the past"
What was important was the fact that I had experienced with or in my body the premises of his explanation.
Let's say that a warrior learns to tune his will, to direct it to a pinpoint, to focus it wherever he wants. It is as if his will, which comes from the midsection of his body, is one single luminous fiber, a fiber that he can direct at any conceivable place. That fiber is the road to the nagual. Or I could also say that the warrior sinks into the nagual through that single fiber.
My main fibre or thread as don calls it is not directed externally to others but to source and that is within and I do experience the energies in my belly. Plus, that is the only will I know 🙂
"he literally flooded his tonal with information. The tonal, without its one-to-one relation with the elements of its description, was incapable of talking to itself, and thus one became silent.
"Whenever you are in the world of the tonal, you should be an impeccable tonal; no time for irrational crap. But whenever you are in the world of the nagual, you should also be impeccable; no time for rational crap"
"For a while you were all nagual and could not talk".
I think that maybe explains the paradigm like difference of where consciousness is and why your mind cannot talk. As in explain?
Laz 04/09/21:
Maybe we are never meant to know where consciousness comes from in this life! No spoilers 😀
Jane 03/09/21:
Pablito said that after the nagual was through with them they were like saints. Sounds a bit like my Kundalini transformation? Lol.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yep, me too
Jane 03/09/21:
"I've told you countless times that a most drastic change was needed if you wanted to succeed in the path of knowledge. That change is not a change of mood, or attitude, or outlook; that change entails the transformation of the island of the tonal. You have accomplished that task."
😈 ➡️ 😇 😀
"Walking in that specific manner saturates the tonal" he said.
"It floods it. You see, the attention of the tonal has to be placed on its creations. In fact, it is that attention that creates the order of the world in the first place; so, the tonal must be attentive to the elements of its world in order to maintain it, and must, above all, uphold the view of the world as internal dialogue."
For me this sounds like a physical act of grounding or even could apply to the mental act of engaging in the world of folly.
Laz 04/09/21:
That’s interesting, can you tell me more?
Jane 04/09/21:
So I used to notice this more as an act of grounding myself when I was in what i guess was the nagual, it is not as dramatically noticed now but I am still aware of it to some degree….I used to sit in my own world/realm of conscious awareness, basically doing my own thing. When I interacted with people I used to feel as if I was coming down and climbing into a bodysuit and mind in order to place my attention in the physical world. I guess it was my tonal self being attentive to the elements of the world? I do not uphold as in agree with the view of the world but I am well aware of the view of the world, I have to be in order to interact with it. To take part in the everyday folly my mind does the same thing where I have to remain attentive relative to the person I am communicating with.
Laz 04/09/21:
I also have this same experience of dialling things down to be able to talk with others, and I hate it if I go too long without just being myself. If i might re-order your words a bit – I guess it was myself using the tonal to be attentive to the elements of the world which others think is the totality 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
I accept the words, reordered. Thanks. 🙂
Laz 04/09/21:
I feel there are stages of realisation to this, and there are perhaps more to come for me. But the further i go down this rabbit hole, the further i move away from the idea that the average person can be saved form the hive! and I don’t like that idea at all.
Jane 04/09/21:
Are you saying here, you don’t like the idea of further realisations? Or you don’t like the idea about people not escaping the hive?
Laz 04/09/21:
The latter yes, sorry for my lack of clarity 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
Because there is a perception to this that you having not personally been a part of the hive may not realise. The hive is where many the masses thrive, they are incapable of being anything but a part
Laz 04/09/21:
I mean, I thought that I was different, but not THAT different! 🙂
Jane 03/09/21:
"Witness, please squeeze your spirit catcher," don Genaro said to Nestor.
I heard the loud, most ludicrous sound of Nestor's contraption. Pablito nearly got hysterical laughing, and so did don Juan and don Genaro. I noticed a peculiar smell and realized then that Nestor had farted. What was horrendously funny was the expression of ultimate seriousness on his face. He had farted not as a joke but because he did not have his spirit catcher with him. He was being helpful in the best way he could. All of them laughed with abandon, What facility they had for shifting from sublime situations to utterly ludicrous ones.
This cracked me up!
"It is mandatory here that a warrior says good-by to all those present and to all those he leaves behind," don Juan said suddenly.
"He must do this in his own words and loudly, so his voice will remain here forever in this place of power. We are all alone, Carlitos," don Genaro said softly.
"That's our condition."
I felt in my throat the anguish of my passion for life and for those close to me; I refused to say good-by to them"
I can relate as a symbolic experience.
I must also add that few warriors survive the encounter with the unknown that you are about to have; not so much because it is hard, but because the nagual is enticing beyond any statement, and warriors who are journeying into it find that to return to the tonal, or to the world of order and noise and pain, is a most unappealing affair.
"The decision to stay or to return is done by something in us which is neither our reason nor our desire, but our will, so there is no way of knowing the outcome of it beforehand"
"This is the sorcerers' explanation. The nagual is the unspeakable. All the possible feelings and beings and selves float in it like barges, peaceful, unaltered, forever. Then the glue of life binds some of them together"
"If you choose not to return you will disappear as if the earth had swallowed you"
So is this where the stone buddha type get stuck?
Laz 04/09/21:
Yep
Jane 03/09/21:
"But if you choose to return to this earth you must wait like true warriors until your particular tasks are finished. Once they are finished, either in success or defeat, you will have the command over the totality of yourselves."
"you experienced the full impact of the journey into the unknown. And your perception unfolded its wings when something in you realized your true nature. You are a cluster. I have called that cluster the bubble of perception. I have also said that it is sealed, closed tightly, and that it never opens until the moment of our death. Yet it could be made to open. Sorcerers have obviously learned that secret, and although not all of them arrive at the totality of themselves, they know about the possibility of it. They know that the bubble opens only when one plunges into the nagual"
I would say that plunge maybe is in the giving up of ego, or maybe in the surrender to sources will? Do you think they are one and the same thing?
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, and no. We are not comparing apples with apples, or cultures with cultures, but there is definitely crossover between our British/Western mindset and the old Yaqui. I found that the Hindus were fairly close to the Yaqui in philosophy too, hence Drew Juna.
Jane 03/09/21:
"Order in our perception is the exclusive realm of the tonal; only there can our actions have a sequence; only there are they like stairways where one can count the steps. There is nothing of that sort in the nagual. Therefore, the view of the tonal is a tool, and as such it is not only the best tool but the only one we've got"
So does this explain why I had a path of definitive steps as I saw them? Like that Jacob’s ladder stairway to climb, whereas you experienced it as more of a flat road?
Don explains..."One changes the facade by altering the use of the elements of the island," he replied.
"Take self-pity again. It was useful to you because you either felt important and deserving of better conditions, better treatment, or because you were unwilling to assume responsibility for the acts that brought you to the state that elicited self-pity, or because you were incapable of bringing the idea of your impending death to witness your acts and advise you."
Erasing personal history and its three companion techniques are the sorcerers' means for changing the facade of the elements of the island. For instance, by erasing your personal history, you have denied use to self-pity; in order for self-pity to work you had to feel important, irresponsible, and immortal. When those feelings were altered in some way, it was no longer possible for you to feel sorry for yourself.
"The same was true with all the other elements which you've changed on your island"
I certainly relate to this, in reading the sourcerers explanation it brings clarification where I recognise my own path of mind training really clearly in these teachings. 🙂 Ok, so with Don’s explanations I am just now seeing how that shamanic style of teaching of don Juan’s works, and he knew his stuff. 🙂
"don Juan's eyes in the darkness. They were kind. They seemed to hold a question. I knew what it was. The unspeakable was truly unspeakable.
"Well?" he asked softly, as if he would need my reaffirmation.
I was speechless. The words "numb," "bewildered," "confused," and so on were not in anyway appropriate descriptions of my feelings at that moment. I was not solid. I knew that don Juan had to grab me and keep me forcibly on the ground, otherwise I would have floated in the air and disappeared. I was not afraid of vanishing"
Is this where Carlos encountered the same experience as Drew?
Laz 04/09/21:
I don’t think Carlos ever did, he never met the ending that he was warned about. I chose to go down that road with Drew rather than have a happy ending as it felt more worthwhile in the context of the story, and as a more spelled out warning to the reader.
Jane 03/09/21:
"All I know is that my nagual went to work on you. I know that much because I can witness its effect, but I don't know how it works."
So it is only by the consequential effects that we can see of the nagual that is the evidence of it’s existence and action? Isn’t that the same principle in the discovery of the so called “god” particle in science, with the hadron collider?
Laz 04/09/21:
I’m not sure, that seems to be in the realm of quantum physics, but can you expand on your statement so that I can better understand?
Jane 04/09/21:
So to me this is an example where science and spirit correlate but on the different dimensions. As I understand it the “god” particle is unobservable, it can only be detected by effects on the field. The Higgs boson, sometimes referred to as the ‘god particle,’ much to the chagrin of scientists who prefer the official name, is a tiny particle that researchers long suspected existed. Its discovery lends strong support to the Standard Model of particle physics, or the known rules of particle physics that scientists believe govern the basic building blocks of matter. The Higgs boson particle is so important to the Standard Model because it signals the existence of the Higgs field, an invisible energy field present throughout the universe that imbues other particles with mass.
Jane 03/09/21:
"There is no way to refer to the unknown," he said.
"One can only witness it. The sorcerers' explanation says that each of us has a center from which the nagual can be witnessed, the will"
"Sorcerers do the same thing with their will," he said.
"They say that through the will they can witness the effects of the nagual"
This is where the question of definition of what kind of will arises for me, because I can say that I have witnessed the effects of the nagual from my actions play out in the physical Matrix realm but I would not say it was my will but sources will? But my witnessing did verify it. Or maybe once we surrender they become one and the same thing?
Laz 04/09/21:
I’m not sure, i’m confused by this.
Jane 04/09/21:
So, don talks about the will of a sorcerer, is that source’s will or the individual will of the human? Because it was not my will I was doing in the matrix so it was only by the consequences that I could witness what that will was. As in things like the energies of unconditional love manifesting in reality. I just felt like source was working through me.
Laz 04/09/21:
Yes, I would say it is the source’s will 🙂
Jane 04/09/21:
Does the individual will and source’s will synch to become one and the same?
Laz 04/09/21:
In my experience, the individual will disappears, to exact no influence on the world, and only source’s will is a driver.
jane 03/09/21:
"Don Juan and don Genaro stepped back and seemed to merge with the darkness. Pablito held my forearm and we said good-by to each other. Then a strange urge, a force, made me run with him to the northern edge of the mesa. I felt his arm holding me as we jumped and then I was alone "
Whoa! The energy in those words was powerful, lol. it brought tears to my eyes 🙂